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CRACKDOWN IN BURMA:VOA TALK SHOW
- Subject: CRACKDOWN IN BURMA:VOA TALK SHOW
- From: moe@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 19:13:00
DATE=MAY 31, 1997
TYPE=ON THE LINE
NUMBER=1-00535
TITLE=CRACKDOWN IN BURMA
EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY - 619-0037
CONTENT=
THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE
ANNCR: ON THE LINE -- A DISCUSSION OF UNITED STATES
POLICIES AND CONTEMPORARY ISSUES. THIS WEEK,
"CRACKDOWN IN BURMA." HERE IS YOUR HOST, ROBERT
REILLY.
HOST: HELLO AND WELCOME TO ON THE LINE.
IN 1990, THE PEOPLE OF BURMA VOTED
OVERWHELMINGLY FOR A DEMOCRATIC CIVILIAN
GOVERNMENT AND AN END TO MILITARY RULE. THE
MILITARY REGIME, CALLED THE STATE LAW AND ORDER
RESTORATION COUNCIL, OR SLORC, ANNULLED THE
ELECTION. SINCE THEN, SLORC HAS ENGAGED IN
SYSTEMATIC HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES. OVER THE PAST
YEAR, ACCORDING TO THE MOST RECENT STATE
DEPARTMENT HUMAN RIGHTS REPORT, BURMA'S
"CITIZENS CONTINUED TO LIVE SUBJECT AT ANY TIME
AND WITHOUT APPEAL TO THE ARBITRARY AND BRUTAL
DICTATES OF THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP." MOST
RECENTLY, SLORC CRACKED DOWN ON SUPPORTERS OF
NATIONAL LEAGUE FOR DEMOCRACY LEADER AUNG SAN
SUU KYI TO PREVENT A MAY CEREMONY MARKING THE
ANNIVERSARY OF THE 1990 ELECTIONS. BECAUSE OF
THE CONTINUING HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES, PRESIDENT
BILL CLINTON HAS IMPOSED ECONOMIC SANCTIONS ON
BURMA.
JOINING ME TODAY TO DISCUSS BURMA AND U.S.
POLICY ARE TWO EXPERTS. GARE SMITH IS DEPUTY
ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEMOCRACY,
HUMAN RIGHTS AND LABOR. AND JONATHAN WINER IS
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR
INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT
AFFAIRS. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
GARE SMITH, A YEAR AGO, DURING THE ANNIVERSARY
OF THE 1990 ELECTIONS, THE SLORC REGIME CRACKED
DOWN ON THE NATIONAL LEAGUE FOR DEMOCRACY. WHAT
HAS HAPPENED DURING THIS PAST WEEK IN BURMA?
SMITH: WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE SEEING A REAL REPEAT
OF THAT EXPERIENCE, BOB. ON MAY 27TH AND 28TH,
HUNDREDS, PERHAPS THOUSANDS OF SUPPORTERS OF
AUNG SAN SUU KYI AND HER NATIONAL PARTY FOR
DEMOCRACY SOUGHT TO COME TO HAVE THE SEVENTH
YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THEIR VICTORY AND THEIR
WINNING SEATS IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY. THE
SLORC TOOK GREAT PAINS TO PROHIBIT THAT. THEY
PUT ROADBLOCKS UP ALL AROUND RANGOON, FENCED OFF
AUNG SAN SUU KYI'S HOME SO THE PEOPLE COULDN'T
GET TO IT, AND ARRESTED, BY MY LAST COUNT, THREE
HUNDRED-SIXTEEN MEMBERS OF HER PARTY WHO HAVE
NOW BEEN JAILED OR PUT IN WHAT THEY CALL "SAFE
HOUSES" SO THEY ARE UNABLE TO TRAVEL AND UNABLE
TO MEET WITH HER.
HOST: THE SLORC REGIME FOR SOME TIME AT LEAST OFFERED
AS A FAINT POSSIBILITY THE DEVELOPMENT OF A
DEMOCRATIC CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER, A
CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION AND SO FORTH. HAS
THEIR PAST BEHAVIOR OVER THIS YEAR DISSIPATED
ANY HOPE FOR IMPROVEMENT ON THEIR PART?
SMITH: WELL, I'D START BY SAYING THAT THIS IDEA OF A
CONSTITUTION IS A TOTAL SHAM. THEY HAVE A
DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED LEGISLATURE AND THOSE ARE
AUNG SAN SUU KYI'S PEOPLE. IN THE 1990
ELECTIONS, THE NATIONAL LEAGUE FOR DEMOCRACY WON
392 SEATS OUT OF A POSSIBLE 485. THAT IS AN
OVERWHELMING VICTORY ANY WAY YOU COUNT IT.
THOSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DULY AND
DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED IN FREE AND FAIR
ELECTIONS. THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO TAKE THEIR
SEATS. IF THEY WANT TO FORM A CONSTITUTION OR
REWRITE IT, THAT'S FINE. THEY'RE THE
DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES. BUT FOR
HAND-PICKED MEMBERS OF SLORC TO WRITE A
CONSTITUTION IS A FARCE. WE SHOULDN'T ACCEPT IT
AND NOR WILL THE PEOPLE OF BURMA.
HOST: JONATHAN WINER, IN YOUR AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY,
WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT BURMA?
WINER: WHAT GARE HAD TO SAY IS VERY IMPORTANT IN
FIGHTING NARCOTICS AND CRIME AS WELL, BECAUSE
ONE OF THE REASONS THAT BURMA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR
TWO-THIRDS OF THE WORLD'S OPIUM CROP -- AND IN
FACT WOULD SUPPLY THE ENTIRE HEROIN DEMAND OF
THE WORLD ON ITS OWN IF NOBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD
PRODUCED HEROIN -- IS BECAUSE ITS GOVERNMENT,
LACKING POPULAR LEGITIMACY, BASICALLY BUYS
SUPPORT AS IT CAN FROM THE TRAFFICKERS. AND SO
WHILE SLORC ITSELF IS NOT PARTICULARLY INVOLVED
IN THE MECHANICS OF DRUG TRAFFICKING, THE DRUG
TRADE IN BURMA IS AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF HOW
THAT GOVERNMENT MAINTAINS POWER. SO, IT'S
INTIMATELY CONNECTED -- THIS LACK OF DEMOCRACY
AND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, IN LARGE
PART, FOR THE WORLD'S HEROIN PROBLEM.
HOST: THE POLICY OF ENGAGEMENT, WHICH HAS PEOPLE IN
SOUTHEAST ASIA, IN ASEAN, PROMOTING CHANGE
WITHIN BURMA BY ENGAGING THE GOVERNMENT.
CRITICS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION HAVE SAID THAT
PRESIDENT CLINTON OUGHT TO BE ENGAGING BURMA
INSTEAD OF IMPOSING SANCTIONS. WHAT HAS BEEN
THE RESULT OF A POLICY OF ENGAGEMENT, WHETHER IT
BE ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES OR OTHER
COUNTRIES IN IMPROVING HUMAN RIGHTS OR INDEED OF
ADDRESSING THIS TREMENDOUS DRUG PROBLEM?
WINER: LET'S TALK ABOUT ENGAGEMENT WITH BURMA FOR A
MOMENT. THE U-N-D-C-P, WHICH IS THE U-N DRUG
CONTROL PROGRAM, A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, WITH
SUPPORT MOSTLY FROM EUROPEAN FUNDERS, WENT IN
AND TRIED TO DO A TEST PROJECT IN BURMA ON DRUG
ERADICATION. THE PROJECT'S STILL STALLED. THE
SLORC WAS NEVER ABLE TO SAY YES. THERE'D BE ONE
OBJECTION, THERE'D BE ANOTHER OBJECTION. YOU
KNOW, THERE WAS ABOUT FIVE HUNDRED KILOS OF
OPIUM SEIZED IN ALL OF BURMA, BY ALL BURMESE LAW
ENFORCEMENT, LAST YEAR. THAT IS LESS THAN ONE
HALF OF ONE PERCENT OF THE TOTAL. IN ANY
REASONABLE COUNTRY, THE SEIZURE SHOULD BE TEN
PERCENT, TWENTY PERCENT -- MINIMAL LAW
ENFORCEMENT, FIVE OR TEN PERCENT. THEY SEIZED
LESS THAN ONE HALF OF ONE PERCENT. THIS IS A
COUNTRY WHICH, NO MATTER HOW ONE ENGAGES WITH
THEM, THE GOVERNANCE HAS BEEN DEPENDENT ON A
KIND OF STATE-SPONSORED CRIMINALITY, A KIND OF
STATE-SPONSORED TERRORISM.
HOST: WHAT WOULD YOUR REACTION BE TO THEIR POTENTIAL
EXCUSE THAT THEY DON'T CONTROL THE PART OF THE
COUNTRY IN WHICH THE HEROIN IS PRODUCED?
WINER: THE WAY IN WHICH THEY MAINTAIN CONTROL OVER ANY
PART OF THE COUNTRY IS BY STRIKING DEALS WITH
PEOPLE WHO CONTROL THAT PART OF THE TERRITORY.
AND CONTROL IS MAINTAINED, IN PART, BY WHO CAN
CONTROL THE REVENUE STREAMS FROM THE DOPE TRADE,
FROM THE PRODUCTION OF OPIUM. SO THAT IS A
TECHNIQUE, A TOOL THEY HAVE HAD TO USE TO
MAINTAIN CONTROL BECAUSE THEY LACK THE POPULAR
LEGITIMACY OF AN ELECTED GOVERNMENT. SO, IT
GOES TO THE CORE OF WHAT THEY'RE ABOUT. IT'S
NOT JUST A SIDELINE.
HOST: GARE SMITH, IN TERMS OF HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES AND
OTHER POLITICAL ISSUES, CAN YOU ADDRESS THIS
QUESTION OF SO-CALLED ENGAGEMENT?
SMITH: ABSOLUTELY. I THINK JONATHAN HIT THE NAIL ON
THE HEAD. NEITHER THIS ADMINISTRATION NOR ANY
OTHER ADMINISTRATION I CAN THINK OF IN THE
UNITED STATES LIKES SANCTIONS. WHEN YOU SEE
SANCTIONS BEING IMPOSED, IT'S A LAST-DITCH
EFFORT. IT MEANS THAT, BASICALLY, BILATERAL
DISCUSSIONS HAVE FAILED, MULTILATERAL ATTEMPTS
HAVE NOT GOTTEN US TO THE POINT THAT WE WANT,
AND THAT WE ARE REALLY LIMITED IN THE STEPS THAT
WE CAN TAKE.
HOST: WELL, DID ANYTHING SPECIFIC TRIGGER THESE
SANCTIONS?
SMITH: WELL, THIS ADMINISTRATION AND SEVERAL
ADMINISTRATIONS BEFORE IT HAVE DONE ALL THAT
THEY POSSIBLY CAN DO TO WORK WITH THE SLORC.
AND LET ME JUST PIGEONHOLE THREE SEPARATE
CATEGORIES. WE HAVE BILATERAL DIPLOMACY. WE
HAVE STRONGLY AND AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS, URGED
THE SLORC TO RESPECT THE DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS,
TO LET AUNG SAN SUU KYI AND THE NATIONAL LEAGUE
FOR DEMOCRACY INTO POWER, TO RELEASE POLITICAL
DISSIDENTS, TO STOP THEIR GROSS HUMAN RIGHTS
VIOLATIONS AND THEIR VIOLATION OF WORKER RIGHTS,
THEIR SLAVE LABOR -- THERE'S CHILD LABOR IN
BURMA -- TO NO AVAIL. WE HAVE WORKED
MULTILATERALLY WITH OUR ALLIES. BEFORE THE
UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY THERE HAVE BEEN
RESOLUTIONS CONDEMNING BURMA. BEFORE THE
INTERNATIONAL LABOR ORGANIZATION, BEFORE THE
UNITED NATIONS HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION. ALL OF
EUROPE, ALL OF THE WEST AND MUCH OF THE EAST --
BECAUSE THIS IS NOT AN EAST-WEST MATTER -- HAVE
CONDEMNED THE BURMESE JUNTA.
HOST: BUT HAS ANY OTHER COUNTRY OR ORGANIZATION JOINED
THE UNITED STATES IN IMPOSING ANY KIND OF TRADE
SANCTIONS?
WINER: WELL, EVEN THE EUROPEAN UNION, WHICH ORDINARILY
DOES NOT LIKE THE SANCTIONS ROUTE. YOU'VE GOT
FIFTEEN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, ALL OF WHOM HAVE
THEIR NATIONAL AGENDAS [THAT HAVE] SAID BURMA IS
NOT ACCEPTABLE, THE BURMESE GOVERNMENT IS NOT
ACCEPTABLE AND HAS IMPOSED SOME SANCTIONS, WHICH
IS VERY, VERY UNUSUAL FOR THE EUROPEAN UNION.
IT'S VERY REMARKABLE. IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE
PROBLEMS THAT DEMOCRACIES HAVE, HUMAN RIGHTS AND
RESPECT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL MAKE IT MORE
DIFFICULT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS
SOMETIMES TO MAKE ARRESTS. WHY CAN'T YOU GO
AFTER THAT GUY? YOU KNOW HE'S GUILTY. WELL, I
HAVE TO HAVE THE EVIDENCE. I HAVE TO HAVE THE
WITNESSES. I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PROVE IT IN A
TRIAL. WELL, THE SLORC DOESN'T HAVE THAT
PROBLEM. THEY DON'T NEED WITNESSES. THEY DON'T
NEED EVIDENCE. IT'S AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.
THEY CAN BASICALLY ARREST WHOEVER THEY WANT TO
AS THEY DID WITH THESE MEMBERS OF THE DEMOCRACY
MOVEMENT OVER THE PAST NUMBER OF DAYS. THE FACT
THAT THEY INTERDICT ALMOST NO HEROIN, THAT THEY
ERADICATE ESSENTIALLY NO OPIUM, DEMONSTRATES
THAT THIS REGIME DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THESE
ISSUES. IN FACT, IT IS ESSENTIAL TO THEM TO
KEEP THESE THINGS GOING AS PART OF THEIR POWER
BASE, WHICH IS WHY THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, LIKE
THE UNITED STATES, LIKE SO MANY COUNTRIES, LOOKS
ON THE SLORC AS AN UTTERLY ILLEGITIMATE REGIME
AND BURMA AS HAVING BECOME, UNFORTUNATELY,
DESPITE ITS WONDERFUL PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING SO
DAMAGED AND DESTROYED BY THIS, A PARIAH STATE.
AND THAT, IN TURN, CREATES ECONOMIC SUFFERING
FOR THE BURMESE PEOPLE. THERE IS NO WAY OUT
OTHER THAN THE WAY OUT OF DEMOCRACY.
HOST: WHY DO NOT THE COUNTRIES OF ASIA, SOUTHEAST ASIA
-- SPECIFICALLY THE MEMBERS OF ASEAN -- AGREE
WITH YOU IN THIS RESPECT? AS YOU KNOW, ASEAN IS
NOW CONSIDERING MEMBERSHIP FOR BURMA IN THAT
ORGANIZATION.
SMITH: WELL, THAT'S RIGHT. AND WE HOPE THAT THEY WILL
TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE ANTI-DEMOCRATIC
TRAGIC EVENTS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE DURING THE
LAST WEEK IN THEIR CONSIDERATION OF WHETHER TO
ADMIT BURMA. WE HOPE THAT WILL BE A FACTOR AND
THAT WILL INFLUENCE THEIR DECISION MAKING.
WHETHER IT DOES OR NOT, THEY WILL HAVE TO DEAL
WITH BURMA. BURMA IS IN THEIR HEMISPHERE.
WHETHER BURMA IS A MEMBER OF ASEAN OR WHETHER
BURMA IS NOT A MEMBER, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO
DEAL WITH THAT MILITARY JUNTA. THEY'RE GOING TO
FIND OUT THAT A MILITARY JUNTA THAT UNDERMINES
THE RIGHTS OF ITS OWN PEOPLE IS ALL THE MORE
LIKELY TO UNDERMINE THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF
OTHER NATIONS AROUND AND THE PEOPLES OF OTHER
NATIONS. SO THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO ADDRESS
THE ISSUE INCREASINGLY AS WE HAVE.
HOST: WELL, IT'S INTERESTING THAT AUNG SAN SUU KYI HAD
A VIDEO SENT OUT OF THE COUNTRY TO THE ASEAN
MEETING IN WHICH SHE IS MAKING AN APPEAL TO THEM
APPARENTLY NOT TO ADMIT BURMA SO LONG AS IT
SUPPRESSES THE PEOPLE. AND ALSO I BELIEVE SHE
HAS TAKEN A STAND ON ECONOMIC TRADE SANCTIONS,
SAYING THEY SHOULD BE PLACED ON BURMA AND THAT
WESTERN CORPORATIONS SHOULD NOT INVEST IN THERE
BECAUSE IT'S ONLY ENRICHING THE REPRESSIVE
ELITE. THAT'S SOMEWHAT UNUSUAL BECAUSE IN MOST
CASES YOU HEAR THE CASE BEING MADE THAT BUSINESS
PROGRESS DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THE COUNTRY WILL
SOMEHOW LEAD TO LIBERALIZATION.
WINER: LOOK AT SOUTH AFRICA AND NELSON MANDELA. NELSON
MANDELA WAS IN PRISON FOR DECADES. AND
ULTIMATELY, AS A RESULT OF THE MORAL POWER HE
HAD AS A LEADER, AS A TRUE LEADER OF HIS PEOPLE,
AND NOW AS A DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED LEADER OF
HIS PEOPLE, TOGETHER WITH MULTILATERAL
SANCTIONS, WITH THE WHOLE WORLD RECOGNIZING THAT
APARTHEID WAS UNACCEPTABLE, YOU HAD A
FUNDAMENTAL TRANSFORMATION OF SOUTH AFRICA FROM
A NON-DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY TO A MULTICULTURAL,
MULTIRACIAL OPEN SOCIETY. THAT IS THE
TRANSITION THAT THE BURMESE PEOPLE DEMONSTRATED
THEY WANTED SIX YEARS AGO AND THAT THE SLORC
FRUSTRATES TO THIS DAY. AND, I THINK IT'S THE
PERSPECTIVE OF OUR PRESIDENT AND OUR SECRETARY
OF STATE AND OUR GOVERNMENT THAT EVERY
GOVERNMENT IN THE WORLD HAS AN ETHICAL AND MORAL
OBLIGATION TO THE PEOPLE OF BURMA, FOR STARTERS,
TO HELP THEM WIN THEIR FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY.
HOST: AS A MATTER OF FACT, I BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT WAS
ACTING ON AUTHORITY GIVEN HIM BY THE U.S.
CONGRESS AND IMPOSING THESE SANCTIONS BECAUSE
SLORC REFUSES TO DEAL WITH THE BURMESE PEOPLE.
CAN YOU BE SPECIFIC, GARE SMITH, AND TELL US
WHAT SLORC NEEDS TO DO TO HAVE THESE SANCTIONS
REMOVED?
SMITH: WELL, IT'S QUITE EASY, AND WE'VE MADE IT
PERFECTLY CLEAR TO SLORC BEFORE THE SANCTIONS
WERE EVEN ON THE PLATTER -- THE COHEN-FEINSTEIN
AMENDMENT, THE EXECUTIVE ORDER WAS SIGNED BY
THE PRESIDENT ON MAY 20TH -- AND THAT IS, THEY
HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENT IN
BURMA AND THEY BOW TO THE DEMANDS OF THE BURMESE
PEOPLE SO THAT THEY COULD HAVE THEIR OWN VOICE
IN THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT, AS THEY ARE ENTITLED
TO.
HOST: IN OTHER WORDS, RECOGNIZE THE LEGITIMACY OF THE
1990 ELECTION.
SMITH: PRECISELY. THAT WOULD CERTAINLY BE THE LARGEST
STEP THAT THEY COULD TAKE. THERE ARE CERTAINLY,
UNFORTUNATELY, A PLETHORA OF OTHER PROBLEMS THAT
WE ENCOUNTER -- CONTINUING HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES,
DISSIDENTS ARE PICKED UP, LOCKED UP IN JAIL,
DISAPPEAR, SOMETIMES KILLED. THERE'S FORCED
LABOR, PEOPLE ARE TAKEN UP OUT OF THEIR VILLAGES
AND MADE TO BUILD ROADS FOR THE SLORC TO EXPAND
THEIR BASE AND THERE ARE ANY NUMBER OF PROBLEMS
THAT WE WOULD ALSO HOPE COULD BE AMELIORATED.
HOST: IN FACT, YOU ADDRESSED A NUMBER OF THESE
PROBLEMS AT THE RECENT U-N HUMAN RIGHTS
COMMISSION MEETING IN GENEVA, WHERE THERE WAS
PASSAGE OF SOME STATEMENT ON BURMA, WAS THERE
NOT?
SMITH: THAT'S RIGHT. WE HAD A VERY STRONG RESOLUTION
THAT THE U-N HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION PASSED ON
BURMA DEALING WITH THEIR FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE
THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED MEMBERS OF THE
GOVERNMENT, LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT, FAILURE TO
HONOR FUNDAMENTAL WORKER RIGHTS, FUNDAMENTAL
RIGHTS. AND I UNDERLINE THAT WORD, BECAUSE
OFTENTIMES THESE KINDS OF DISCUSSIONS GET CAUGHT
UP IN AN EAST-WEST, NORTH-SOUTH DEBATE -- OH,
THOSE ARE U.S. VALUES, THOSE ARE WESTERN VALUES
BEING IMPOSED ON ASIA, WHICH HAS DIFFERENT
VALUES, AND YOU SHOULD RESPECT OUR DIFFERENT
VALUES. THAT'S A REAL RED HERRING AND THAT'S
SOMETHING THAT YOU NEED ONLY TO LOOK AT THE U-N
HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, WHICH HAS CHINA, HAS
MALAYSIA, HAS DIFFERENT MEMBERS OF THE ASIAN
COMMUNITY THERE. THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF
HUMAN RIGHTS WAS DRAFTED BY THREE INDIVIDUALS.
ONE WAS ELEANOR ROOSEVLET, ANOTHER WAS A
FRENCHMAN, ANOTHER WAS A CHINAMAN. AND THOSE
UNIVERSAL NORMS REFLECT ASIAN VALUES JUST AS
MUCH, [JUST] AS STRONGLY AS THEY REFLECT WESTERN
VALUES.
HOST: INDEED, DID SOME OF THESE ASIAN NATIONS VOTE FOR
THIS RESOLUTION AGAINST BURMA?
SMITH: ABSOLUTELY. THIS WAS NOT A CLOSE VOTE.
WINER: THE UNITED STATES IS NOT THE ONE WHO ELECTED
AUNG SAN SUU KYI TO RULE HER COUNTRY. IT WAS
THE BURMESE PEOPLE. THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO
BELIEVED THEY WANTED A DIFFERENT REGIME, A
DIFFERENT RULE WHEN THEY WERE GIVEN THE CHANCE.
HOST: ONE HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE THAT SOMETIMES DOES NOT
RECEIVE AS MUCH PROMINENCE AS THE SLAVE LABOR
AND THE CHILD LABOR AND SUPPRESSION OF POLITICAL
RIGHTS, IS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE ETHNIC
MINORITIES IN BURMA?
SMITH: THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION. THERE ARE A NUMBER
OF DIFFERENT ETHNIC MINORITIES. THE ONE THAT
MOST RECENTLY HAS SUFFERED IS THE KAREN, MANY OF
WHICH HAVE GONE ACROSS THE BORDER IN BURMA TO
FLEE REPRESSION AND HAVE REFUGEE CAMPS ON
THAILAND JUST OVER THE RIVER. IN JANUARY, THERE
WERE RAIDS. THE BURMESE WENT OVER THE BORDER
AND BURNED A NUMBER OF THOSE CAMPS TO THE GROUND
AND MUCH MORE RECENTLY THIS MONTH A NUMBER OF
PEOPLE HAVE DISAPPEARED. THERE HAS BEEN SOME
FORCED REPATRIATION. THE FIGURES RANGE FROM A
LOW OF FOUR-HUNDRED TO A HIGH OF TWO-THOUSAND
PEOPLE BEING FORCED BACK FROM THEIR REFUGEE
CAMPS IN THAILAND INTO THE REPRESSIVE HANDS OF
THE SLORC AGAINST THEIR WILL. THAT'S A TRAGEDY.
THERE'S NO OTHER WORD FOR IT. IT'S A GREAT
TRAGEDY AND ITS A VIOLATION OF THEIR RIGHTS AND
OUR CHARGE IN BURMA HAS MADE STRONG
DENUNCIATIONS OF THAT AND WE'RE SPEAKING WITH
THE THAI OFFICIALS ALSO.
WINER: IT'S A VERY INTERESTING POLITICAL PHENOMENOM.
ANY TIME YOU SEE REFUGEE FLOWS, IT'S A SIGN OF
FAILED GOVERNMENT. YOU DON'T HAVE REFUGEES
WHERE GOVERNMENTS ARE FUNCTIONING, WHERE
GOVERNMENTS ARE TAKING CARE OF THEIR PEOPLE.
YOU ONLY HAVE IT WHEN A GOVERNMENT IF
FUNDAMENTALLY FAILED. THIS GOVERNMENT, THE
SLORC, HAS FUNDAMENTALLY FAILED. IT IS GOING TO
WIND UP IN THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY LIKE EVERY
OTHER TOTALITARIAN REGIME THAT DOES NOT
REPRESENT ITS PEOPLE. AND THE WORLD COMMUNITY
HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO PUSH THEM INTO THAT
DUSTBIN SOONER RATHER THAN LATER BY MAKING IT
IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO SUSTAIN THE ILLICIT
CONTROL THEY HAVE OF THEIR COUNTRY.
HOST: ONE ANALYST HAS SAID THAT THE UNITED STATES MAY
BE MISGUIDED IN A JUST COLD STRATEGIC VIEW OF
THINGS BY TRYING TO ISOLATE BURMA BECAUSE THIS
WILL SIMPLY DRIVE BURMA FURTHER INTO THE ARMS OF
CHINA, CHINA SEEKING PORTS IN THE INDIAN OCEAN
AND SEEKING ACCESS TO THE INDIAN OCEAN FROM
BURMESE PORTS. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT KIND OF
ASSESSMENT?
SMITH: CHINA IS GOING TO ACT IN CHINA'S BEST INTEREST
AS IT ALWAYS HAS, AND [IT] WANTS THOSE PORTS.
AND CHINA HAS WORKED WITH SLORC QUITE CLOSELY IN
THE PAST AND IS CONTINUING TO. BUT CHINA WANTS
TO BE ACCEPTED AS A MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL
COMMUNITY AS A MAJOR PLAYER. CHINA WANTS TO BE
A MEMBER OF THE WORD TRADE ORGANIZATION. CHINA
WANTS TO HAVE A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON.
CHINA WANTS TO TAKE STEPS UP THE LADDER TO BE
RECOGNIZED AS A POWER PLAYER, AND IF CHINA IS TO
BE RECOGNIZED AS A POWER PLAYER, IF CHINA IS TO
BECOME A MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY
THAT IS RESPECTED, IT TOO WILL RECOGNIZE THAT IT
IS NOT IN BEIJING'S SELF-INTEREST TO PROP UP A
DESPOTIC REGIME SUCH AS EXISTS IN BURMA.
WINER: EVEN APART FROM LOOKING BEYOND THE BURMA-CHINA
BORDER, DO YOU WANT AS YOUR NEIGHBOR-STATE
GOVERNMENT, AS YOUR PARTNER A GOVERNMENT THAT
LACKS POPULAR LEGITIMACY, WHICH COULD COLLAPSE
FROM WITHIN AND CREATE GRAVE INSTABILITY AND
GRAVE DISCONTINUITY IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP? DO
YOU WANT TO BE IDENTIFIED WITH THAT UNPOPULAR
GOVERNMENT? I DON'T THINK ANY GOVERNMENT DOES
OR SHOULD. IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS APPROACH. AND
IT CREATES GRAVE RISKS AND CHINA, LIVING NEXT TO
BURMA, CLEARLY RECOGNIZES THE NATURE OF THIS
GOVERNMENT AS WELL AS ANY GOVERNMENT IN THE
WORLD, WHATEVER IT CHOOSES TO DO ABOUT IT.
HOST: I'M AFRAID THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE THIS
WEEK. I'D LIKE TO THANK OUR GUESTS -- GARE
SMITH, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR
DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS AND LABOR; AND JONATHAN
WINER, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR
INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT
AFFAIRS -- FOR JOINING ME TO DISCUSS U.S. POLICY
AND BURMA. THIS IS ROBERT REILLY FOR ON THE
LINE.